Complete Marvel Reading Order


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 Post subject: Re: Marvel Hyborian reading order
PostPosted: January 12th, 2018, 6:56 pm 
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Let's imagine these three completely hypothetical scenarios:

  • Marvel fully incorporates the Dark Horse Conan continuity into its own new Conan books. Not just characters, concepts, locations -- it's the whole kabang, everything happened, it's all canon.
  • Marvel incorporates elements that originate in Dark Horse Conan, so characters, concepts, locations, etcetera, into its own new Conan books -- but that's where it ends. A reappearing character doesn't have the same backstory, or is completely reintroduced.
  • Marvel takes a clean break from Dark Horse, incorporating only the continuity of the original Marvel Conan books, the original novels, etcetera, but no Dark Horse whatsoever.

What does and doesn't get included in these three scenarios?

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 Post subject: Re: Marvel Hyborian reading order
PostPosted: January 12th, 2018, 6:56 pm 
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vanhornluke wrote:
fragsel wrote:
So I guess I only list Angela in my guide to be used via forum, not actual Expanded Order listing...

And it's OK. I can live with it...

But still doesnt;' understand why there is so many Golden Age comics not published by MArvel listed in Golden Age Order...
Why exception for those? Cause They are old?

Actually, I think there's still a case to be made for including Image Angela appearances in the expanded order. Unless newer Angela stories have made it impossible, the original intention was that the Angela who had those Image appearances traveled to 616 because of the time chaos caused by the Age of Ultron story. The handbook writers asked about listing her first appearance as an issue of Spawn and were told not to do so for legal reasons, but that this didn't mean that wasn't her first appearance. Now, if more recent stories have established a backstory for her that is incompatible with the Image stories, then I'd think we'd have to conclude they're two different characters, but the original intention at least was that it was the very same character rather than an alternate universe version of her.


By this explanation, I would only include those stories of Angela appearing in the Marvel universe, and, if it's seen in an image comic her leaving the image universe, that 1 comic. Even though we'd acknowledge that it's the same character, I would not want to include all the image comic appearances of her because.

1. It's an entire different continuity. You'd be left with FAR more questions then answers about other characters she crosses over with.
2. Those aren't published by Marvel. if we ignored that rule and included her image comics, then there's be an equally strong argument for adding ALL the other connected image comics that contained characters she crossed over with. And then an equally strong argument for bringing in all the comics those people connected with, which would include DC comics, and ... then you have something unusable.

To be clear. I do NOT want to include Angela comics from Image comics.

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 Post subject: Re: Marvel Hyborian reading order
PostPosted: January 12th, 2018, 6:58 pm 
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I just looked again at Doctor Nemesis's handbook entry and it explicitly says that his first appearance is in Lightning Comics #6. That is explicit handbook acknowledgment that his golden age stories are 616 stories, and thus the reason that they were included in the golden age order. He is the only member of the Battle-Axis to have gotten a handbook entry so far, but there's no reason to assume that the other members' golden age appearances aren't also 616, especially since their golden age backstories are explicitly mentioned in Invaders vol. 2. That's why the Human Meteor, Spider Queen, etc., golden age stories were also included. So I think fragsel's worry that there's no explicit proof that they are 616 are off-base. fragsel does have a good point about Amazing Man, though. He wasn't a member of the Battle-Axis, so we don't have explicit proof that his golden age stories are 616. I think they were treated that way because of the way the Battle-Axis's stories were treated, but strictly speaking that's an assumption without proof. It's quite reasonable, but fragsel is right that we don't appear to have an explicit statement from Marvel about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Marvel Hyborian reading order
PostPosted: January 12th, 2018, 6:59 pm 
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This may not be a valid argument. And I don't know if it's Fragsel's argument. But...

characters like Conan and ROM, they feel like Marvel characters. Yes, they're licenses that Marvel bought and then lost, but they nonetheless feel like Marvel characters.

Take this hypothetical (and, admittedly, an exaggeration). Let's say that Marvel loses the rights to Spider-Man. Dark Horse starts publishing it's own Spider-Man comics. Then, after about 10 years or so, Marvel gets the Spider-Man rights back. Doesn't every alternate version of Spider-Man belong in the expanded order?

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 Post subject: Re: Marvel Hyborian reading order
PostPosted: January 12th, 2018, 7:02 pm 
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Alex Daily wrote:
Marvel fully incorporates the Dark Horse Conan continuity into its own new Conan books. Not just characters, concepts, locations -- it's the whole kabang, everything happened, it's all canon.

My first question is...how. Marvel doesn't own those appearances. They are licensing Conan, not purchasing other people's use of the character. Does IDW reference or include Marvel's ROM appearances in their ROM books?

Either way, I would probably argue against adding DH Conan comics into the Marvel reading order. The main reason being....DH is not Marvel. I'd argue strong against adding it. It's not the Conan order, its the Marvel order. DH is not Marvel.

Alex Daily wrote:
Marvel incorporates elements that originate in Dark Horse Conan, so characters, concepts, locations, etcetera, into its own new Conan books -- but that's where it ends. A reappearing character doesn't have the same backstory, or is completely reintroduced.

None of the DH stuff get's added. It's an alternate version of the character, published by someone else. No different than Clark Kent 616 being a different character than DC's version


Alex Daily wrote:
Marvel takes a clean break from Dark Horse, incorporating only the continuity of the original Marvel Conan books, the original novels, etcetera, but no Dark Horse whatsoever.


The easiest answer. Still no DH comics make it in.


Generally, in all scenarios, I'm against DH comics being added, en mass, into CMRO.

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 Post subject: Re: Marvel Hyborian reading order
PostPosted: January 12th, 2018, 7:03 pm 
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tstarnes wrote:
vanhornluke wrote:
fragsel wrote:
So I guess I only list Angela in my guide to be used via forum, not actual Expanded Order listing...

And it's OK. I can live with it...

But still doesnt;' understand why there is so many Golden Age comics not published by MArvel listed in Golden Age Order...
Why exception for those? Cause They are old?

Actually, I think there's still a case to be made for including Image Angela appearances in the expanded order. Unless newer Angela stories have made it impossible, the original intention was that the Angela who had those Image appearances traveled to 616 because of the time chaos caused by the Age of Ultron story. The handbook writers asked about listing her first appearance as an issue of Spawn and were told not to do so for legal reasons, but that this didn't mean that wasn't her first appearance. Now, if more recent stories have established a backstory for her that is incompatible with the Image stories, then I'd think we'd have to conclude they're two different characters, but the original intention at least was that it was the very same character rather than an alternate universe version of her.


By this explanation, I would only include those stories of Angela appearing in the Marvel universe, and, if it's seen in an image comic her leaving the image universe, that 1 comic. Even though we'd acknowledge that it's the same character, I would not want to include all the image comic appearances of her because.

1. It's an entire different continuity. You'd be left with FAR more questions then answers about other characters she crosses over with.
2. Those aren't published by Marvel. if we ignored that rule and included her image comics, then there's be an equally strong argument for adding ALL the other connected image comics that contained characters she crossed over with. And then an equally strong argument for bringing in all the comics those people connected with, which would include DC comics, and ... then you have something unusable.

To be clear. I do NOT want to include Angela comics from Image comics.

I thought the difference with Angela was that she isn't just a licensed character, but Marvel literally bought her. The original intention was that she traveled from Image to Marvel through the time chaos in Age of Ultron. So the idea was to treat her Image appearances like Death's Head's appearances in Transformers and Doctor Who. Death's Head's appearances there were included, but that didn't mean that it brought in all of Transformers or Doctor Who. Similarly, Angela's appearances in Image stories wouldn't bring in the rest of Image. Yes, that means you wouldn't know much about the Image characters she meets, but you also don't know much about the Transformers or the Doctor when Death's Head meets them, either. That lack of familiarity with the characters Death's Head meets wasn't considered a reason to exclude those Death's Head appearances. So I would think the same would go for Angela (especially since she only has about 20 Image appearances, not a bazillion). But if you want to put your foot down and exclude all Image appearances of Angela, that's your right. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Marvel Hyborian reading order
PostPosted: January 12th, 2018, 7:04 pm 
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tearsofrage wrote:
This may not be a valid argument. And I don't know if it's Fragsel's argument. But...

characters like Conan and ROM, they feel like Marvel characters. Yes, they're licenses that Marvel bought and then lost, but they nonetheless feel like Marvel characters.

Take this hypothetical (and, admittedly, an exaggeration). Let's say that Marvel loses the rights to Spider-Man. Dark Horse starts publishing it's own Spider-Man comics. Then, after about 10 years or so, Marvel gets the Spider-Man rights back. Doesn't every alternate version of Spider-Man belong in the expanded order?


No, it doesn't.

As true as the fact that, every time I've aruged on leaving a marvel published comic out of the order, Fragsel points out it's the COMPLETE marvel reading order. Here I point out that it's the complete MARVEL reading order.

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 Post subject: Re: Marvel Hyborian reading order
PostPosted: January 12th, 2018, 7:07 pm 
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vanhornluke wrote:
I thought the difference with Angela was that she isn't just a licensed character, but Marvel literally bought her. The original intention was that she traveled from Image to Marvel through the time chaos in Age of Ultron. So the idea was to treat her Image appearances like Death's Head's appearances in Transformers and Doctor Who. Death's Head's appearances there were included, but that didn't mean that it brought in all of Transformers or Doctor Who. Similarly, Angela's appearances in Image stories wouldn't bring in the rest of Image. Yes, that means you wouldn't know much about the Image characters she meets, but you also don't know much about the Transformers or the Doctor when Death's Head meets them, either. That lack of familiarity with the characters Death's Head meets wasn't considered a reason to exclude those Death's Head appearances. So I would think the same would go for Angela (especially since she only has about 20 Image appearances, not a bazillion). But if you want to put your foot down and exclude all Image appearances of Angela, that's your right. ;)


Marvel bought her, but the didn't buy Image. Do they own the rights to the image published comics featuring her? The difference between her and deaths head is...Marvel owned Death's Head when he crossed over to those other titles. Marvel didn't own Angela at the time. Death's Head was a Marvel character traveling to other realities. Angela is a character from another reality who has come to Marvel.

As I said earlier, as right as fragsel is when he says this is a COMPLETE marvel reading order, the Marvel part of that is just as important.

As I said, if Marvel inexplicably buys Batman and brings him to the Marvel universe, would you argue that all DC published batman appearances should be in?

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Last edited by tstarnes on January 12th, 2018, 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Marvel Hyborian reading order
PostPosted: January 12th, 2018, 7:21 pm 
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Well, you've been very clare and unambiguous. No to the Dark Horse comics. If Spidey hypotheticals are a straight no for you, then I don't see how Conan could work.

However, I do have some questions about one of your responses to Alex's scenarios:

tstarnes wrote:
Alex Daily wrote:
Marvel fully incorporates the Dark Horse Conan continuity into its own new Conan books. Not just characters, concepts, locations -- it's the whole kabang, everything happened, it's all canon.

My first question is...how. Marvel doesn't own those appearances. They are licensing Conan, not purchasing other people's use of the character. Does IDW reference or include Marvel's ROM appearances in their ROM books?

Either way, I would probably argue against adding DH Conan comics into the Marvel reading order. The main reason being....DH is not Marvel. I'd argue strong against adding it. It's not the Conan order, its the Marvel order. DH is not Marvel.


I don't know the intricacies of these contracts, but I don't think it's impossible.

But in the unlikely scenario that this does happen, I absolutely think it should be included. If Marvel goes and says, "Yes, that Dark Horse stuff is 616 and everything that happened in it is canon", then I think that unambiguously makes it part of the Expanded Order. As Fragsel pointed out, there are other non-Marvel comics that have been grandfathered into the order due to a handbook.

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 Post subject: Re: Marvel Hyborian reading order
PostPosted: January 12th, 2018, 7:30 pm 
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There are other non marvel comics, but not other non-marvel runs/worlds. And then do those characters get to bring in works from other comics when crossovers occur.

And...what happens if Marvel later loses rights to Conan? Does it fall back out?

What about other stuff purchased in the future (cause this won't be the last licensing deal)? Do we redo the order to add in whole runs of other publishers works every time a character is purchased? At some point, you have to say, this isn't in CMRO, but you can find info on an order of these comics here, and there's a list of connection points in the forums.

If we're talking about hypotheticals, what if Marvel and DC make a co-licensing deal to use the others characters, or one buys the other. Should we then smash the two orders together?

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