Complete Marvel Reading Order


It is currently January 17th, 2018, 8:02 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 160 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 12, 13, 14, 15, 16  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Marvel Hyborian reading order
PostPosted: January 12th, 2018, 7:30 pm 
Offline
Avenger
User avatar

Joined: January 12th, 2012, 10:25 pm
Posts: 4876
Location: Ultraverse
Has liked: 1059 times
Been liked: 516 times
tstarnes wrote:
vanhornluke wrote:
I thought the difference with Angela was that she isn't just a licensed character, but Marvel literally bought her. The original intention was that she traveled from Image to Marvel through the time chaos in Age of Ultron. So the idea was to treat her Image appearances like Death's Head's appearances in Transformers and Doctor Who. Death's Head's appearances there were included, but that didn't mean that it brought in all of Transformers or Doctor Who. Similarly, Angela's appearances in Image stories wouldn't bring in the rest of Image. Yes, that means you wouldn't know much about the Image characters she meets, but you also don't know much about the Transformers or the Doctor when Death's Head meets them, either. That lack of familiarity with the characters Death's Head meets wasn't considered a reason to exclude those Death's Head appearances. So I would think the same would go for Angela (especially since she only has about 20 Image appearances, not a bazillion). But if you want to put your foot down and exclude all Image appearances of Angela, that's your right. ;)


Marvel bought her, but the didn't buy Image. Do they own the rights to the image published comics featuring her? The difference between her and deaths head is...Marvel owned Death's Head when he crossed over to those other titles. Marvel didn't own Angela at the time. Death's Head was a Marvel character traveling to other realities. Angela is a character from another reality who has come to Marvel.

As I said earlier, as right as fragsel is when he says this is a COMPLETE marvel reading order, the Marvel part of that is just as important.

As I said, if Marvel inexplicably buys Batman and brings him to the Marvel universe, would you argue that all DC published batman appearances should be in?

No, I wouldn't say that all Batman stories should be included in the expanded order if Marvel purchased him, simply due to the sheer number of them. But there are only about 20 Angela appearances in Image, so that would seem doable. But maybe a better solution would be a separate Image order site, and on the page for her first Marvel appearance in CMRO, somehow link back to her last Image appearance on Image Comics Reading Order (or whatever it would be called).

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marvel Hyborian reading order
PostPosted: January 12th, 2018, 7:39 pm 
Offline
Sidekick
User avatar

Joined: December 24th, 2013, 6:42 pm
Posts: 321
Has liked: 22 times
Been liked: 99 times
Just an fyi since it seems like it's coming up here and there: Red Sonja isn't a part of the Conan license at all anymore. She is now considered her own separate thing legally speaking (despite still being set in Conan's Age of Hyboria). Dynamite still has the license for her.

vanhornluke wrote:
I think we should wait to find out before making a decision one way or the other. We'll probably know from Marvel if they're going to treat the Dark Horse comics as in continuity long before you actually reach the first Dark Horse stories, fragsel. ;-) If they do reference stories from Dark Horse, that would make me wonder about Dynamite's Red Sonja comics, too. That could be a nightmare trying to figure out, since I think Dynamite has had Red Sonja cross over with some of their other characters, and I don't know if those crossovers are in-continuity with their regular Red Sonja stories or not.


I did a title list for Dynamite due to The Shadow, so if anyone can make any sort of use of it do go ahead xD

As far as i could tell, there is no effort or even intention to actually keep the "shared universe" cohesive on a macro scale, but crossover-wise, Red Sonja appears/participates in:

    Prophecy
    Li'l (parody-ish themed event, think Tiny Titans)
    Legenderry (steampunk alternate universe based event)
    Altered States (themed event similar to Elseworlds)
    Swords of Sorrow (explicitly a multiversal affair)
    Pathfinder: Worldscape (Battleworld: Dynamite edition)

Prophecy seems like the only one that might be a bit headachey in any way.

Also i think they might have rebooted Red Sonja at some point (a while after that whole widely publicized reincarnation plot-line). Have fun :p


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marvel Hyborian reading order
PostPosted: January 12th, 2018, 7:54 pm 
Offline
Minion

Joined: November 10th, 2017, 3:24 pm
Posts: 23
Has liked: 14 times
Been liked: 15 times
Have you all heard the news that Conan is coming back to Marvel in 2019?

_________________


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marvel Hyborian reading order
PostPosted: January 12th, 2018, 8:00 pm 
Offline
Avenger
User avatar

Joined: July 23rd, 2013, 8:43 am
Posts: 3939
Location: Trouble
Has liked: 601 times
Been liked: 1393 times
tearsofrage wrote:
Well, you've been very clare and unambiguous. No to the Dark Horse comics. If Spidey hypotheticals are a straight no for you, then I don't see how Conan could work.

However, I do have some questions about one of your responses to Alex's scenarios:

tstarnes wrote:
Alex Daily wrote:
Marvel fully incorporates the Dark Horse Conan continuity into its own new Conan books. Not just characters, concepts, locations -- it's the whole kabang, everything happened, it's all canon.

My first question is...how. Marvel doesn't own those appearances. They are licensing Conan, not purchasing other people's use of the character. Does IDW reference or include Marvel's ROM appearances in their ROM books?

Either way, I would probably argue against adding DH Conan comics into the Marvel reading order. The main reason being....DH is not Marvel. I'd argue strong against adding it. It's not the Conan order, its the Marvel order. DH is not Marvel.


I don't know the intricacies of these contracts, but I don't think it's impossible.

But in the unlikely scenario that this does happen, I absolutely think it should be included. If Marvel goes and says, "Yes, that Dark Horse stuff is 616 and everything that happened in it is canon", then I think that unambiguously makes it part of the Expanded Order. As Fragsel pointed out, there are other non-Marvel comics that have been grandfathered into the order due to a handbook.


I mean -- Dark Horse prints collections of the Marvel Conan books, right? Presumably Marvel will at the very least now have the right to print and release digitally both the original Marvel Conan and the Dark Horse Conan. This is what happened with Star Wars, too. Titan Comics have been releasing collections of the IDW Doctor Who comics, too, so I assume this is a relatively standard part of a license transferring.

For a more directly relevant example, take Transformers -- Marvel published it for a few years. Spider-Man appeared early on. Today, IDW holds that licence, and from 2012 to 2014 published a direct follow-up to the Marvel Transformers continuity. So just based on precedent, I don't think there's anything in the legal sense stopping Marvel releasing stories that feature elements from or exist directly in the continuity of the Dark Horse books. (Now, creatively, obviously, it would make absolute sense for them to want to do their own thing and not be beholden to something other people did.)

tstarnes wrote:
And...what happens if Marvel later loses rights to Conan? Does it fall back out?

What about other stuff purchased in the future (cause this won't be the last licensing deal)? Do we redo the order to add in whole runs of other publishers works every time a character is purchased? At some point, you have to say, this isn't in CMRO, but you can find info on an order of these comics here, and there's a list of connection points in the forums.


I don't think that scenario is relevant -- what matters is, when Marvel puts out new Conan, how much of Dark Horse Conan are they building on top of? If they then stop putting out new Conan, that doesn't change what they did in 2019.

In fact, if Marvel go all-in on including the Dark Horse Conan, I'd stop thinking of them as "Dark Horse Conan" and think of them as "Marvel Conan (2/3)". Certainly, taking Star Wars as a precedent, any part of it that Marvel rerelease (trades, Marvel Unlimited) will carry a bunch of Marvel logos on it, with the Dark Horse logo nowhere to be found.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marvel Hyborian reading order
PostPosted: January 12th, 2018, 8:11 pm 
Offline
Beyonder
User avatar

Joined: June 9th, 2011, 8:39 am
Posts: 22826
Has liked: 462 times
Been liked: 3328 times
Star wars was different. Marvel didn't license Star Wars, disney bought it outright, making them (and visa-vie Marvel) the license holder, who now own the license that Dark Horse licensed to publish star wars.

Marvel didn't purchase Conan, so they don't have the right to everything conan did. From my experience with licensing (not in the comic world, but a lot in other areas), the titan/Doctor who thing is something they must have worked out separately. You'd have to pay a license to the license holder AND the people who published the original material, since there are two copyrights at stake, one covering the character(s) in question and another the creative work used for those characters.

For Marvel to use all of Conan's DH appearances they'd have to 1) buy Conan (as they did with Angela), making them the license holder and giving them access to all previous licensing deals for that character or 2) work out a separate licensing deal with DH. The deal they work out was with the family of the creator of Conan, not with DH. That would be a separate deal

_________________


Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marvel Hyborian reading order
PostPosted: January 12th, 2018, 8:52 pm 
Offline
Avenger
User avatar

Joined: September 26th, 2013, 1:58 am
Posts: 2908
Has liked: 168 times
Been liked: 385 times
tstarnes wrote:
There are other non marvel comics, but not other non-marvel runs/worlds. And then do those characters get to bring in works from other comics when crossovers occur.

And...what happens if Marvel later loses rights to Conan? Does it fall back out?

What about other stuff purchased in the future (cause this won't be the last licensing deal)? Do we redo the order to add in whole runs of other publishers works every time a character is purchased? At some point, you have to say, this isn't in CMRO, but you can find info on an order of these comics here, and there's a list of connection points in the forums.


It's not anytime Marvel buys something. It's everything Marvel buys something and says, "That comic published by another company was actually 616 the whole time."

Take Malibu. Marvel bought Malibu. But, Malibu comics isn't in the order because non of those comics are considered 616, nor did they cross over with 616.

However, Marvel has bought golden age stuff and retroactively said that it was 616. And that is in the order.

The main order + certain supplementary orders is supposed to be every appearance of a 616 character. If (and only if) Marvel says that the Dark Horse comics are 616 and we exclude them, the order will be incomplete.

_________________


Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marvel Hyborian reading order
PostPosted: January 12th, 2018, 8:54 pm 
Offline
Sidekick
User avatar

Joined: December 24th, 2013, 6:42 pm
Posts: 321
Has liked: 22 times
Been liked: 99 times
tstarnes wrote:
You'd have to pay a license to the license holder AND the people who published the original material, since there are two copyrights at stake, one covering the character(s) in question and another the creative work used for those characters.


Taking no sides in the actual argument (at least at this time), but as far as i've seen, that isn't generally how these licensing agreements work since at least the 70s. In every case i can think of, it's all treated as work for hire with all copyrights going to the license, not the publisher, which is why Dark Horse was allowed to reprint the Marvel Conan/Star Wars and Dynamite can reprint the Marvel Red Sonja or the DC The Shadow and so on: it comes with/is all part of the license

Look at the copyrights on the Marvel "Legends" reprints of Dark Horse era Star Wars material. Lucasfilm is the only copyright holder mentioned anywhere to the best of my knowledge.


Last edited by Azurfel on January 12th, 2018, 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marvel Hyborian reading order
PostPosted: January 12th, 2018, 9:03 pm 
Offline
Beyonder
User avatar

Joined: June 9th, 2011, 8:39 am
Posts: 22826
Has liked: 462 times
Been liked: 3328 times
Azurfel wrote:
tstarnes wrote:
You'd have to pay a license to the license holder AND the people who published the original material, since there are two copyrights at stake, one covering the character(s) in question and another the creative work used for those characters.


Taking no sides in the actual argument (at least at this time), but as far as i've seen, that isn't generally how these licensing agreements work since at least the 70s. In every case i can think of, it's all treated as work for hire with all copyrights going to the license, not the publisher, which is why Dark Horse was allowed to reprint the Marvel Conan/Star Wars and Dynamite can reprint the Marvel Red Sonja or the DC The Shadow and so on: it comes with/is all part of the license

Look at the copyrights on the Marvel "Legends" reprints of Dark Horse era Star Wars material. Lucasfilm is the only copyright holder mentioned anywhere to the best of my knowledge.


That isn't right. The creator is doing work for hire, with the publisher holding the copyright. If an external thing is licensed, the external entity maintains ownership of that character, but allows it to be used, while the publisher holds copyright on the new creations themselves. The publisher isn't working as work for hire for the eternal entity. (A telling sign of this is the copyright section of those comics are listed as copyright to Marvel comics, and the character copyright to the original copyright holder. If it was work for hire with everything going to the licensee, the first copyright notice would not be there)

If Dark Horse is reprinting stuff from Marvel, I 100% guarantee they paid Marvel to do it. There are 2 separate copyrights in play. I am positive on this. Previous licenses deals to not transfer to the new party of new license deals. That's like saying, if I license mickey mouse to use in my comics, I can then print any previous use of Mickey Mouse in comics.

Again, SW is different because Disney, which owns Marvel, bought Star Wars, which holds the license. The reason that Marvel can reprint Dark Horse stuff is that Marvel now owns the original license, and can so the shared printing license Lucasefilm maintained with DH is now owned by Marvel (or marvel's parent company) giving them access to that shared printing license.

The ownership vs. the licnesing of a property makes the cases different.

_________________


Image


Last edited by tstarnes on January 12th, 2018, 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marvel Hyborian reading order
PostPosted: January 12th, 2018, 9:18 pm 
Offline
Sidekick
User avatar

Joined: December 24th, 2013, 6:42 pm
Posts: 321
Has liked: 22 times
Been liked: 99 times
tstarnes wrote:
If Dark Horse is reprinting stuff from Marvel, I 100% guarantee they paid Marvel to do it. There are 2 separate copyrights in play. I am positive on this. Previous licenses deals to not transfer to the new party of new license deals. That's like saying, if I license mickey mouse to use in my comics, I can then print any previous use of Mickey Mouse in comics.


I have spent a lot of time looking at copyright indicia in the process of making these title lists, and as a general rule the publisher is not listed as a copyright holder for the actual material in licensed titles even when they are doing the publishing. The only exception i can even think of to this off the top of my head is those DC The Fox and the Crow comics from the 50s.

Like, here is a Dark Horse Conan indecia from 2013, note that Dark Horse is only mentioned with regard to ownership of the Dark Horse name and logo, not the actual material, which is listed as copyright Conan Properties International LLC:

Image


Last edited by Azurfel on January 12th, 2018, 9:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Marvel Hyborian reading order
PostPosted: January 12th, 2018, 9:25 pm 
Offline
Beyonder
User avatar

Joined: June 9th, 2011, 8:39 am
Posts: 22826
Has liked: 462 times
Been liked: 3328 times
Read it again.

The top part is talks about Conan, and conan things and lists those as copyright of CPI. It only covers names, related logos, characters and distinctive likeness.
It then says that no position of this publication may be reproduced or transmitted, in any for or by any means, without the express written permission of Dark Horse Comics.

That sentence is them holding the copyright to the contents of the comic itself. If CPI held the copyright for the comic and not just the characters and names used in the comic, it would have said CPI there.

_________________


Image


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 160 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 12, 13, 14, 15, 16  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group