Complete Marvel Reading Order


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 Post subject: Working Order
PostPosted: October 3rd, 2016, 11:24 pm 
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Beyonder
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This order has started going live on the site. From this point please refer to the site itself. http://startrekreadingorder.com/

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 Post subject: Re: Working Order
PostPosted: October 4th, 2016, 12:07 am 
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I have a few unrelated comments. I'm not sure how helpful they'll be, since I'm not as familiar with all the Trek tie-in stuff as I am with Marvel and Star Wars.

1) You've included lots of incompatible timelines in the same reading order (including even the mirror universe!), so why leave out all the material tying into the recent films (the Kelvin universe)?

2) Do you plan to have any sort of "continuity" tags? For example, there's the novelverse, the Shatnerverse, the "Byrneverse" (John Byrne's interconnected continuity in his IDW stories), the STOverse, etc.

3) You appear to have left out the newspaper strips (reprinted in their entirety in two IDW hardcovers) and all of the original UK comics.

4) I think the Eugenics Wars novels should be set during the 20th century. They have a framing story with Kirk, but it's really minor. Plus, I believe some of the other stories set in the late 20th/early 21st centuries published after the Eugenics Wars novels actually refer to their events, so readers wouldn't understand those references if they don't read EW until the Kirk era.

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 Post subject: Re: Working Order
PostPosted: October 4th, 2016, 12:11 am 
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I just noticed that you also appear to have left out the intercompany crossovers with Legion of Superheroes, Doctor Who, and Planet of the Apes published by IDW.

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 Post subject: Re: Working Order
PostPosted: October 4th, 2016, 12:53 am 
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I am thinking I should pull out the other universes, and put them in their own timelines/orders.

What should I pull out if I want to pull out those incompatible ones.

Do you have a list of those inter-company crossovers and where to put them (I am fine with them, I do have the x-men/star trek crossovers in there). And are they part of the same timeline as the main star trek universe?

I am considering separate orders for stuff that is definitely incompatible. The Shatnerverse stuff is....semi-compatible. Everything I've read says it can be part...or not. From my reading, they Byrneverse seems a lot more wide ranging and incompatible. But these were some of the things I wanted to discuss with people and get thoughts on.

I've read the eugenics stuff recently, and through a large swath of the novels. There isn't anything in there that you need to know about later novels that come before my placement of them. They really only inform each other, and a khan novel set between the episode he appears in and Wrath of Khan. You DO need to know Gary Sven (or whatever) before reading these however. Him and his assistant are referenced constantly, and the book assumes you know who they are. Having read them, they are better served being read after those episodes of TOS.

In general, I am setting books to their framing point, and not their flashback point, unless there is compelling reason to do so. Having read the Eugenics books, and From Shadow's History one that also uses Sven, you really need to watch Assignment earth (I think that is the name of the episode) first. Besides informing the books, those books also spoil the episode.

Can you suggest placement and give me a link to the 2 hardcovers of the strip reprints (didn't know about them)

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 Post subject: Re: Working Order
PostPosted: October 4th, 2016, 7:17 am 
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I wish I could help but I've only watched the TV Shows. I read Star Trek/X-Men once but none of the other comics or novels.

I'm currently in season 4 of DS9 and season 2 of Voyager in my chronological viewing. So far everything seems good in that order that I've posted somewhere on the forums.

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 Post subject: Re: Working Order
PostPosted: October 4th, 2016, 8:18 am 
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Yeah, I'm completely useless on this one -- I know the basic gist of the official canon policy is "TV/film only, except when it isn't," but unless Dr Who showed up in it, I don't know anything about Shatnerverses and Byrneverses. Exactly how many of these alternate timelines are there, besides the Kelvin timeline?

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 Post subject: Re: Working Order
PostPosted: October 4th, 2016, 8:20 am 
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Alex Daily wrote:
Yeah, I'm completely useless on this one -- I know the basic gist of the official canon policy is "TV/film only, except when it isn't," but unless Dr Who showed up in it, I don't know anything about Shatnerverses and Byrneverses. Exactly how many of these alternate timelines are there, besides the Kelvin timeline?


This was my question for Luke. Are these other ones alternate timelines (ok, I know Myriadverse is, as well as Mirrorverse and those should be pulled out)?

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 Post subject: Re: Working Order
PostPosted: October 4th, 2016, 8:30 am 
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Googling around now, most Star Trek material seems to operate on "TV/film is canon, and what we're doing is canon to ourselves," so without being familiar with the material in detail, I feel like you're gonna be running into way more problems than with the Star Wars or Marvel sites.

What I, personally, would do, is have a TV/film order, and then one order per publisher, basically -- i.e. a Gold Key Order that includes only TOS, TAS, and the Gold Key comics, an IDW Order that includes all the shows and films, all the IDW comics, and the book series they sometimes follow up on, Bantam Books, Pocket Books, etcetera.

I have no idea if that's even viable, or if that wouldn't over-fragment everything, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Working Order
PostPosted: October 4th, 2016, 8:43 am 
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Yea, I've seen that, but I wanted to fit together as much as I could. I know the crucible is considered outside, but the Gold Key stuff, the pocket and bantum books, the DC and Marvel comics, generally don't contradict each other. Its more they ignore each other and should be able to work together.

I might pull out stuff that makes the order unreadable as I get to them.

I just don't think a "by publisher" order would be satisfying enough and I think you were right in it potentially being over-fragmented. My main idea was to just cut out the blatantly contradictory or are clearly in their own timelines, and try and shoehorn the rest together.

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 Post subject: Re: Working Order
PostPosted: October 4th, 2016, 11:14 am 
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Here's a link to the first volume of the IDW newspaper strip collection: http://www.idwpublishing.com/product/st ... ips-vol-1/ (that page has a link to the second volume as well). These begin shortly after The Motion Picture but then continue on for years, eventually changing costumes to match those in The Wrath of Khan. Each individual strip story is titled, so it would be possible to break them up into individual entries for each story (like issues of Marvel Mystery Comics with five or six stories in each issue). I would have to go back and look at where to break them up to fit them better into the overall timeline. One problem is that there's a huge continuity error at the beginning. They began working on the strips before the film was released so that they'd be ready to publish in newspapers when the film came out. This meant they were working mostly off publicity stills and the like without knowing much of the actual story in the movie. Thus, in the first few strips Ilia is still a crewmember on the Enterprise. As soon as the film came out and the writer realized his goof, she disappears from the strip without explanation. I don't know if that's the sort of thing you want to ignore as just a goof, or if it's enough to make you think the strips are an incompatible continuity (if memory serves, most of the rest of the strips fit just fine into the timeframe between TMP and TWOK without conflicting with the other comics and novels set then, but I haven't read everything in that time period and so can't be confident about that judgment).

The original UK stories are definitely an incompatible continuity. For whatever reason, the authors in the UK either didn't have enough info to go on, or else just didn't care, and so their stories are fun but irreconcilable with other Trek stories. For example, they have the Enterprise exploring other galaxies and landing on planet surfaces. The characterizations of Kirk (sometimes called "Captain Kurt"!), Spock, and the others are sometimes way off, etc. IDW has started reprinting these (http://www.idwpublishing.com/product/st ... ics-vol-1/), but only the first volume is out so far. The original stories in the UK magazines should be listed, though, rather than the IDW reprints. If you're serious about separating out incompatible continuities into their own reading orders, then these would make an excellent candidate for that, especially since there were over 200 individual stories in the UK magazines.

Regarding separating out incompatible continuities, this is extremely difficult. Star Trek has always had a policy of canon being only what's on-screen (and even that's problematic, since whether or not the animated series is canon depends on which Trek official you ask at which time). Thus, there's never been a requirement that tie-ins be consistent with each other. There are some continuities that are easily separated out, though. For example:

The Crucible trilogy of novels
The Shatnerverse (the early novels are compatible with other novels, but then the Mirror Universe stuff conflicts with the novelverse, and the Totality stories are incompatible with the novelverse's Titan novels)
The STOverse (the game, novel, and short stories)
The Byrneverse
Hive (the IDW comic series, which is incompatible with the novelverse, especially the Destiny trilogy)
Myriad Universes (not really a continuity in its own right, but more of a series of What If?-style stories)

Then there's the loose 80s continuity of novels. These were all stories overwritten by TNG once it began. Their depictions of Klingons and Romulans especially are consistent with TOS but not with what TNG later established. These stories occasionally reference each other, so they form a loose-knit continuity of their own. They ended when TNG began and Richard Arnold issued the edict that tie-ins could no longer reference each other.

The biggest continuity is the novelverse. This tentatively began in the 90s with novel crossover series like Invasion, but really got its start with gusto with the DS9 relaunch. It now includes hundreds of novels and a few explicit comic tie-ins (usually comics written by novelverse authors). The problem is that it's hard to delineate where the boundaries of the novelverse are. Sometimes they explicitly bring in earlier pre-novelverse stories by referencing them and including their characters (such as the TNG novel Vendetta, with the novelverse novel Before Dishonor being a sequel to it). Lots of the older numbered novels (especially those from TNG and later shows) and comics are perfectly consistent with the novelverse, but not all of them are. For example, besides the 80s continuity novels, you've got stuff like the TNG Dark Mirror novel, which portrays a Mirror Universe incompatible with the later DS9 episodes. Comics are even more complicated. Lots of the DC stories are consistent with the novelverse (some have even been referenced in novelverse stories), but not all of them are. For example, DC also portrayed the mirror universe in a way incompatible with DS9. And don't even get me started on Gold Key, some of which has been referenced by later stories but some of which is totally bizarre and likely incompatible (e.g., Kirk ordering genocide). Some of the Strange New Worlds stories have been incorporated into the novelverse, but others are incompatible. And as if that wasn't complicated enough, sometimes the older 80s continuity novels are referenced by novelverse stories (e.g., Greg Cox references Ann Crispin's novels in No Time Like the Past, and Vanguard referenced The Vulcan Academy Murders). I suppose it would be possible for someone to go through all the older novels and comics and pick out those that are incompatible with the novelverse, but that would require far greater familiarity with all of those stories than I have.

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