Haters gonna hate. Enjoy reading Antman and the Wasp's adventures as 40% of the "real, actual" Avengers. Pfft.
Or you could try reading Avengers from the 15 years before Bendis made them cool and shook up the line-up (an Avengers tradition from issue 1, btw), I bet those issues are superb (they're not).

Avengers have always been tagged: Earth's Mightiest Heroes
Some how Spidey, Thing, Wolverine et all don't fit that bill?

You're saying you'd rather read about Tigra, Jack of Hears and Antman II? Is that somehow better?

And the bit about niches and all that? False. Ask the people who have actually read comics from "old Marvel": it was a shared universe almost from the outset.
And you know who the biggest contributes to the idea of a shared universe was?
Here's a hint: he was the star of Marvel Team-Up. Consider that last bit a preemptive strike on the "Spidey's always been a loner" crap people like to toss around.

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Do not bore me with such trite cliches. For I have you in my clutches, and should I choose, I could snuff out your insignificant lives in an instant.

I think the Wolverine on the Avengers squad fighting against the x-men is what is found out of place. And not that Spidey is a loner, but he is not a Team guy. He turned down membership to joing teams several times, and now all the sudden he is on FF and Avengers?

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All of a sudden? He joined the Avengers in (IIRC) 2003. In 2011 he joined the Future Foundation. It's 8 years man!

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Do not bore me with such trite cliches. For I have you in my clutches, and should I choose, I could snuff out your insignificant lives in an instant.

I guess it just goes against the character that was always turning down membership before. Heck, I am only in 74 and he has turned down the avengers twice already and the ff once.

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I'm with Doom on this one (that strikes me as a sensible motto to have for one who values his life). The Avengers aren't about a set lineup; they had two roster changes by issue #4 and they kept coming. And if anybody did have nostalgia for the days of Tigra and Jack of Hearts, they'd be the ones that understand that the Avengers are about a mission rather than about any one hero or another. As long as the non-traditional Avengers hold true to the feeling of the Avengers books (team play, high-profile missions, etc) then it's all good.

And I think it's great if Spider-Man is evolving to be more of a team player than he used to. I think that with the Civil War and especially with the "death" of Johnny Storm, he's realized he can do more good on a team. I don't like drastic character changes done just for attention, but things like that are welcome character growth.

And if Marvel ever has had an "isolationist" period in terms of sequestering books from each other, that would qualify for Marvel's dark ages. The (extremely) shared universe is what set Marvel apart in the 1960s, and it's the number one thing on my list of what I love about Marvel.
The X-books have been a little more isolated than the rest of the stuff maybe, which is what makes Avengers vs X-Men work better than, say, Avengers vs FF.

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I was reading a letters page from Tales of the Zombie from 73 yesterday where this debate was going back and forth. The Editor of the book wanted to know if Zombie should or should not be in the shared universe. Apparently there was a discussion about the new titles coming in during the 70's and whether they should be in the main universe or not.

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I'm not saying there weren't crossovers, but they seemed special, I refer again to a convo with an older silver agey fan where he expressed how cool it was when say Human Torch popped up in Spiderman b/c of how rare it was back then.

And I stand by my calls for 'isolationism' not that they didn't crossover, just that each team book had niches. You kinda knew what to expect from an Avengers story vs a Fan 4 story. Now it just seems like X-Men might have to run to the negative zone and they won't even consult Richards. Shoot they should'nt have had more than one run with Belasco before they at least tried to leave a voicemail for Dr Strange.

Thing is on Fan 4. Spiderman is a RESERVE Avenger, nothing more. Forgive me my enjoyment of certain elements of the status quo, but yeah, I do expect, maybe would prefer, to see Black Knights or Tigras or even Moondragons filling up Avenger slots than characters who were already well established on other, or no, teams.

It is all about execution at the end of the day, and admittedly, I haven't read enough recent stuff to know/understand what might've lead Ben Grimm to go to Avengers meetings in his lame new Freedom Foundation or WTFever costume. Maybe Parker coming to the conclusion that he can do more on a team was natural and organic, IDK, but as stated above, it flies in the face of previous character choices, not that you can't change your mind. Maybe I need to do more research.

DOOM, I would (emphasis) enjoy more Antman/Wasp in my Avengers. As it should be. Bring back Jack of Hearts and Make Mine Traditional.

PS to your point DOOM about Spidey as loner. There is a difference between loner and 'not-joiner'. My understanding of Spidey is that he's happy to help out, get some help back, he's just not sticking around for the meetings. And 8 years or whatever of Bendis blurring those lines does not make it right. Not that it's wrong. Maybe I'm having a fan boy "that's not how it's supposed to be" moment.

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This was the world that I had created. I know what I have to do to fix it...to make things right. There's no problem that can't be solved.

The problem with the "special" rare crossover is it went away a long time ago. By the 70's, nearly every issue features an appearance by a character from another comic. Not as bad as it is now, but that is because there are constant universe wide events, when before 2000 universe wide events were not constant, and before 90 they weren't even common.

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